Sep 5, 2012

Debate Review IV

“And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.”  (Jeremiah 32:40)

“And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.”  (Ezekiel 36:27)

The above verses, along with others of similar import, were introduced by me as a proof that God's work of regeneration guarantees perseverance.  God says he will do something in his chosen people which will cause them to do something.  He says the effect of his work in them will ensure "that they shall not depart from me." 

"His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips."  (Psalm 89: 29-34)

"The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand."  (Psa. 37: 23-24)

I introduced these verses to show that the Lord has promised not to eternally condemn his people when they sin but promises to correct them and bring them to repentance.  The Lord's people do fall, but they shall not be utterly cast down.  I also cited these verses along the same line.

"But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."  (I Cor. 11: 32) 

"And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."  (Heb. 12: 5-11)

I argued that these verses also show what the response of the Lord is to the disobedience of his people.  He chastises them and his chastisement does not fail to produce what he intends.  To say that such discipline by the Father often fails is to say that God is not a successful Father.  God does not fail to correct his erring children, just as Jesus does not fail to keep his sheep from going astray so as to be destroyed.

Again, none of the sins of God's children are "unto death" but are rather "not unto death."  They are unto discipline and correction, which is itself unto salvation.

11 comments:

Dr. Richard Trader said...

An excellent presentation of the perseverance of the saints. Jeremiah 32:40 is beyond question, my favorite
verse on the subject.

I read your article in SBC Today on faith and regeneration. I will always be grateful to you for showing me the
difference between Spurgeon's view and the so-called "new Calvinists."

Stephen Garrett said...

Dear Dr. Trader:

Thank you so much. Good to hear from you. Sadly, SBC restricted me as to how much I could post.

Blessings,

Stephen

Russ said...

Hi Stephen,

The OT verses that you quote have an original context of speaking about the Nation Israel. I'm curious how you treat that?

Secondly, what in your opinion is the purpose for the warning passages in scripture?

Thanks,

Russ

Stephen Garrett said...

I agree that the reference is first to the elect Jews but believe that Gentile elect also experience the same new covenant blessings.

Warnings are given for the purpose of being means. In Acts 27 Paul is assured by Christ that no one will lose his life who is on the ship and yet he warns the centurian saying "except these abide in the ship you cannot be saved."

The warnings become means of either saving some or of further condemning others.

Blessings,

Stephen

Russ said...

Sorry for the delay in getting back. Thank you for your response. Do you hold to warning passages being the means to cause the elect to persevere?

Thanks,

Russ

Russ said...

I apolgize I meant to include this.

The Acts passages read
, 31Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, “Unless these men remain in the ship, you yourselves cannot be saved.”
34“Therefore I encourage you to take some food, for this is for your preservation, for not a hair from the head of any of you will perish.”

How do these verses teach that those that chose not to remain on the ship were never saved in the first place?

Thanks again,

Russ

Stephen Garrett said...

Dear Russ:

The warning passages warn of real danger and serve as means of salvation. In the case of those who have been predestined to salvation, they will succeed.

About the passage in Acts, everyone stayed in the ship and thus none were lost. All were saved by the ordination of God (first cause) and the warnings (second cause). The salvation in Acts was salvation from drowning and physical death but is a picture of soul salvation.

They were not saved till they reached their destination, though their salvation was fixed and determined. Do you disagree?

Blessings,

Stephen

Russ said...

Hello Stephen:

You stated:
“The warning passages warn of real danger and serve as means of salvation. In the case of those who have been predestined to salvation, they will succeed. “

*** My question would be how can they be a real danger if they could never actually occur to the elect?

Also if the elect can’t fall away, then following the thought all the way through, the warnings become false warnings, and even further lies.

What are your thoughts?

You also wrote:
“About the passage in Acts, everyone stayed in the ship and thus none were lost. All were saved by the ordination of God (first cause) and the warnings (second cause). The salvation in Acts was salvation from drowning and physical death but is a picture of soul salvation.

They were not saved till they reached their destination, though their salvation was fixed and determined. Do you disagree?”

*** I would have to disagree, they were saved by the power of Christ realized through continued faith in Christ. The warnings were not only true, but real in the sense that in order for them to be real they have to have the ability to come true. If the warnings could never happen, then they’re not warnings at all because they could never actually happen.

Blessings,
Russ

Stephen Garrett said...

Dear Russ:

I do not see how you can disagree with the fact that the salvation of all on board the ship with Paul was fixed and certain. Listen to the words of the text.

22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.

23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.


From the standpoint of this promise, none were in any real danger. But, from the standpoint of the storm itself, there was real danger and necessitated the warnings and exhortations of the apostle.

Blessings,

Stephen

Russ said...

Hi Stephen,

you wrote"
I do not see how you can disagree with the fact that the salvation of all on board the ship with Paul was fixed and certain. Listen to the words of the text."

I disagree that it was certain apart from the men continuing in faith. In otherwords they had to abide in the vine. God made sure the vine was all that they needed to be saved but doesn't force the hand of the person to remain in the vine thus making the exhortation real.

I'm also curious of your opinion to in regards to my previous post:

“The warning passages warn of real danger and serve as means of salvation. In the case of those who have been predestined to salvation, they will succeed. “

*** My question would be how can they be a real danger if they could never actually occur to the elect?

Also if the elect can’t fall away, then following the thought all the way through, the warnings become false warnings, and even further lies.

What are your thoughts?

Thank you Stephen.

Russ

Stephen Garrett said...

Dear Russ:

I have already answered your queries and do not need to repeat it. I am sorry that you cannot see the truth on this.

Blessings,

Stephen