Billy, at http://classicalarminianism.blogspot.com/ has written against the bible doctrine of election and I have responded with some comments to his writing. Here is what he wrote and our exchange.
"Where in the bible is it explicitly stated that one's "election" unto salvation is based on an eternal decree? That question led Arminius, as well as subsequent Arminians, to question the Calvinistic theory of election."
"Someone may ask, If Arminians believe that election is based on one's relationship to and union with Christ Jesus, and not on an eternal decree, then how does one interpret Ephesians 1.4? That is a worthy question, and one of which I have focused this week."
"Paul wrote, "For he [God] chose us in him [Christ] before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" (Eph. 1.4). The purpose for this choosing was not for a person to be placed in Christ Jesus; the purpose of the choosing here was for a person to be holy and blameless in his sight, based upon his or her union with Christ Jesus. How is this accomplished? It is accomplished only by being in Christ Jesus."
"The text does not read, "For he chose us to be in him before the foundation of the world, holy and blameless in his sight." It reads, "For he chose us in him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." The difference is paramount. The aspect of the believer being placed in Christ (by faith) is, of course, entirely true, but it is not unconditional."
"Thus God chose that we who are in Christ Jesus would stand before him holy and blameless because of what Jesus accomplished; and this is actualized through our faith in and union with him. This decision was made before the foundation of the world: all who would be in Christ would stand before God holy and blameless. Election is in Christ, not in an eternal decree."
"Election is solely in Christ Jesus. Without Christ Jesus and outside of union with Him, there is no election. Thus those who are in Christ, the elect One (Isa. 42.1), are elect. They are not elect because God decided to save them as opposed to saving many others."
Brother Billy:
By your interpretation of the passage, one is not automatically holy and guiltless by virtus of being in Christ! One is in Christ first. But, he is not holy and guiltless. God must decide, post facto, to make these people, who have put themselves into Christ, holy and blameless! To choose to make an unholy man into a holy man, and to choose to make a guilty man into a justified man, is to choose to put him in Christ.
By your interpretation, being "in Christ" is unconnected with holiness and justification. By your definition, a man is not saved when he is in Christ. Does not Paul say we are "chosen to salvation"? If he elects to save those who are in Christ, then you make being "in Christ" not equal, in itself, to salvation. Don't you see?
Is a man holy who is in Christ? Not by your view. God chose, Post Facto, to make those in Christ to be so.
God bless,
Stephen
"Dear Brother Stephen,
No, I do not see, and think that you're wrong, obviously.
In your view, then, someone is "in Christ" by virtue of a decree, and is saved and justified without being holy and blameless.
Plus, you have ignored the very English and Greek: He chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him.
It does not read that he chose us "to be" in him, does it? And, No, Paul did not say that God chose us "unto salvation," as you say. If you look further into some textual footnotes you'll discover that God chose the Thessalonians "as firstfruits" (aparche) for salvation, not deterministically, as you may think, but by the Spirit AND FAITH in the truth (2Thess. 2.13).
You wrote, "By your interpretation of the passage, one is not automatically holy and guiltless by virtus of being in Christ! One is in Christ first. But, he is not holy and guiltless.
"Your first statement is quite unfounded, isn't it? How you deduced that a person is not "automatically" holy and blameless by his or her union with Christ is beyond me. It is only by being in Him that a person is holy and blameless. God chose that those who would be in Christ would stand before Him holy and blameless. How is what you've stated even true?
You wrote, "God must decide, post facto, to make these people, who have put themselves into Christ, holy and blameless!" They did not "put themselves into Christ." Way to construct a stupid strawman. Calvinists are so infamous for such! The Spirit of God puts a person in Christ by his or her faith. No one can "put themselves into Christ." Your caricaturing is truly not appreciated, Stephen.
You wrote, "By your interpretation, being 'in Christ' is unconnected with holiness and justification.
"How exactly did you prove this?
You: "By your definition, a man is not saved when he is in Christ."
Okay . . . I'd really like to understand you here, but you make it very difficult."
If he elects to save those who are in Christ, then you make being 'in Christ' not equal, in itself, to salvation."
You missed the point, didn't you? His choice was not to put someone "in Christ." I realize how you could get hung up in that logic because of your Calvinism. The choice is for God to make holy and blameless those whose faith is in Christ Jesus. If someone is made holy and blameless in God's view, is that not justification? Are we not justified by faith in Christ (Rom. 3.24-25; 5.1)?
It seems that in order for your view to be true, Paul should have written, "For God chose us TO BE in him before the foundation of the world AND TO BE holy and blameless before him."
That, however, is not what he wrote.
God bless your study,
Billy
Why can you not see the point? I don't know. But, I will try it again.
You said that a man believes and this puts him into Christ. Now, in response, God chooses to make holy such an one. But, if being in Christ automatically makes one holy, then why do you say God chooses to make such holy? How can he choose to make holy those who are already holy simply by their being in Christ?
Besides, I believe that "in Christ" means all the same as "through Christ."
Also, the passage in Thessalonians says God chooses TO salvation. Your view is that God chooses those who are already saved, but the choice is not to be saved!
God bless,
Stephen
Then I added this comment.
One other thought:
Your view of election is - "God chooses those who first choose him." But, I find the reverse to be the case. "We choose him because he first chose us.
"We are clearly told that we "love him because he first loved us" (I John 4: 19)
Love necessarily involves a showing favor or a choosing. Therefore, he chose us before we chose him.
Besides, the word "before" seems to be ignored by you in your interpretation. Before denotes which is first. God chose us "before the foundation of the world" and therefore his choice of us is first and ours second.
God bless,
Stephen
Stephen,
Thank you for your input, but I think you're wrong.
God bless,
Billy
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