Billy, my friend and brother at classical arminianism blog, See here, left a comment on a Calvinist blog the other day and was involved in a discussion as to whether regeneration preceded faith and brought up the passage in Colossians 2: 13 where being made "alive" is put after the receiving of the "forgiveness" of sins, which is contrary to the "ordo salutis" that the Hybrids insist upon. No one bothered to show how the passage was in accord with the neo Reformed ordo salutis. After I pointed this out, one writer finally responded with verbal assualts, mainly, but then said that the being "made alive" took place when Christ was resurrected. Here is what John Gill said:
"...and this may be said to be done "with Christ", because this is in consequence of his being quickened, or raised from the dead; and by it they were made partakers of the life of Christ, they became one spirit with him; and it was not so much they that lived, but Christ lived in them; and besides, they were quickened, in order to live a life of grace and communion with him here, and of glory hereafter: or it may be interpreted of the quickening of them in justification; and the rather, because of what is said in the next clause..." (Commentary - emphasis mine - SG)
Billy has posted a series the past few days on the crooked arrows of Hyper Calvinism. I do not agree with Billy on everything, but do agree with him on his rejection of the Hybrid's ordo salutis. He posted an entry today on I John 5: 1 and cited some of our own writings on that verse. It is good material to read and evaluate.
11 comments:
Would you agree with A.T. Robertson when he says this about Col. 2:13
The act of forgiving is simultaneous with the quickening, though logically antecedent.?
Thanks
Dear A:
Yes, I agree with Robertson that forgiveness and justification precede regeneration, as to the order of decrees, or logically.
When a person is saved or converted, when he believes and repents, he is at that same moment called, justified, forgiven, pardoned, regenerated, transformed, renewed, reborn, re-created, adopted, etc. Think of the new birth as the hub of a wheel, with the spokes being all the things mentioned. The writer to Hebrews speaks of salvation and the "things that accompany salvation."
Blessings,
Stephen
Dear A:
Consider also the "order" of events. Christ died on the cross and this is the point when all the elect were justified and forgiven, representatively, and yet he was not "quickened" till three days later. So, which came first/
Blessings,
Stephen
So you would agree with Billy in that faith comes first as well as justification, then regeneration?
I guess I’m confused, I thought he was arminian and you were a calvinist.
I read Robertson to be agreeing with Billy, that this shows faith comes before regeneration, or as Robertson puts it “logically antecedent”.
Thanks
Dear A:
I answered you already. Remember the spokes of the wheel analogy? Remember Hebrews 7 and "things which accompany salvation"?
I have repeatedly affirmed that the placement of faith before regeneration is not essential to the basic five points of Calvinism. I have repeatedly stated here that faith is, more often than not, put before salvation and forgiveness, and before regeneration and conversion, than it does after.
To believe Paul, that we are "all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus," (Gal. 3: 26) or to believe John, that those "who received him were given power to become the sons of God," (John 1: 10-12), does no violence to Calvinism.
When the Lord begets life he begets faith and love. All at the same time.
Also, did I not refer to the order of the decrees? God gives faith and repentance, justifies and forgives, and transforms. Logically, he transforms because he has accounted just. Did I not say that the elect were forgiven when Christ died, but that it was three days later when he was quickened? So, if analogy holds, then the justification and forgiveness came three days before the quickening.
Blessings,
Stephen
When you say that justification and forgiveness came three days before the quickening what does that say about the text that say while we were yet sinners he raised us? Seems that what you are saying is that when we are raised we are no longer dead in trespasses and sins, since we have been justified and forgiven already.
Thanks
Dear A:
What verse?
Blessings,
Stephen
Eph. 2:1,5
Dear A:
Paul teaches in the Ephesian verses you mention, as he does elsewhere, that the elect were crucified with Christ when he was crucified; And, when Christ died (to sin and the former life), the elect also died. Also, when Christ was buried, the elect were buried, and when he was resurrected, they were resurrected, and when he ascended to heaven, they ascended also. All this was done representively because of a union (not vital) that the elect have with Christ by the decree of the Father (election).
My point was that the sequence of events does not uphold a regeneration before justification scenario. The act of resurrection, quickening, or coming to life, followed the act of justification.
Union with Christ must logically come first before regeneration. We are joined to Christ by faith.
Union with Christ logically precedes both regeneration and justification.
Is not "justification UNTO life"? (Romans 5: 18) Justification corresponds with condemnation unto death. A man is condemned then dies. A man is justified and then lives again.
Certainly God quickens the dead and he justifies the ungodly. To say, logically, that he quickens the justified and forgiven, does not contradict this.
Recall also that Paul says in Romans that God "justifies the ungodly," who would be the unregenerate. He justifies the unregenerate. But, if regeneration is first, and justification second, then he would be justifying the godly.
Blessings,
Stephen
You call people "hyperists" and "hybrids". What do you mean by these in discussing the ordo salutis?
Thanks,
Mark
Dear John Mark:
See this posting here for an answer to your question.
Also see here
And
here
Blessings,
Stephen
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